Help In Deciding On A S1 Or S2

[AlanS1]

First of all hello to everyone. I have just joined. The reason for this is that i am possibly looking at selling my current toy (GBS Zero) and possibly getting a Elise.

 

I did own a S1 Elise some 7 years ago (first child arrived. usual story)

 

I really enjoyed driving and owning the S1. It was standard apart from the 160 exhaust and uprated shocks. It was so easy to drive near the limit. I did do 1 track day with it in the rain. Didn't think anything could corner so fast in the rain and it was so predictable.

 

As the title says i am after some pro's and con's for the S1 and S2.

Which are the best models to go for?

Which drive better, give better performance, can be uprated the easiest?

I am not after a show car as i intend to do a few track days. Which one gives the best smile?

I cant seem to be able to forget comment that Jeramy Clarkson made about the S2, saying that Lotus had ruined it (due to understeer).

 

I have noticed some Sub 10k very good S1's and standard looking S2's for sale (not actually viewed any though)

What should i be looking for? (apart from the accident damage etc)

 

Any help, comments are fully appreciated as my knowledge is limited on the Elise nowadays .

 

Alan

[scatty]

I will let everyone else give you the low down.

 

Welcome by the way.... :-)

[DeanB]

Hi Alan. Welcome to MLOC.

 

If you like s1 Elises then I would say get one. They are quick out of the box as you know and easy to modify. I prefer the look of the s2 and because I sometimes use it for work the much improved s2 roof was also a factor in buying an early k series s2. They do understeer as Lotus wanted them to be less likely to catch owners out with lift off oversteer. If you don't like it the cure is nitron dampers or similar and wider front tyres.

Be aware that all the Toyota engined variants also have brake servos, abs and a heavier engine and box and so weigh 875 ish kilos compared to 740 ish for an s1 and 760 ish for a non vvc and aircon k series s2. It makes a big difference does 125+ kilos.

Also, the 111r engine gives 189 horses but very little low down torque apparently.

K series cars do blow head gaskets. Not just some, all of them do it - but if they have the new style gasket on they should last a bit longer.

That's just a few bits and bobs to get you started....

 

[Martin R]

S2 are easier for access due to the lower sills. Also the short tail roof is easier to fit. They made the S2 understeer slightly as they got sick of Lotus managers putting S1's in ditches. This is easily cured with a decent geo. My wife says buy an S2 so there you go. Make it and early light one though Welcome to MLOC BTW

[AlanS1]

Thanks for the welcome and advise.

 

The S1 i owned had what i thought was a head gasket failure. I removed the head and could not see where the issue was. I fitted a uprated gasket from QED. Started the engine and problem still there. The actual issue was the inlet manifold gasket. It had failed between the waterway and port giving the same symptoms of a head gasket issue. i wonder how many have been this issue instaed of the actual head gasket?

From what i have learned so far then, its either a S1 or early S2? I do prefer light weight and balanced to heavy and power.

Obviously i have owned and driven a S1 (be it some years ago). What does a S2 drive like compared? Is it easier to predict? Chassis any better?

 

Alan

[Martin R]

Thanks for the welcome and advise.

 

The S1 i owned had what i thought was a head gasket failure. I removed the head and could not see where the issue was. I fitted a uprated gasket from QED. Started the engine and problem still there. The actual issue was the inlet manifold gasket. It had failed between the waterway and port giving the same symptoms of a head gasket issue. i wonder how many have been this issue instaed of the actual head gasket?

From what i have learned so far then, its either a S1 or early S2? I do prefer light weight and balanced to heavy and power.

Obviously i have owned and driven a S1 (be it some years ago). What does a S2 drive like compared? Is it easier to predict? Chassis any better?

 

Alan

 

No difference IMO dependent on tyres, geo, dampers etc.

[AlanS1]

No difference IMO dependent on tyres, geo, dampers etc.

 

I guess this rule applies to any car really?

But are there any improvements that Lotus made between the S1 and S2? What about build quality?

I have noticed that S1's are nearly the same(some more) than S2's. Is this because the S1's are better? rarer?or just more desirable?

[Martin R]

I guess this rule applies to any car really?

But are there any improvements that Lotus made between the S1 and S2? What about build quality?

I have noticed that S1's are nearly the same(some more) than S2's. Is this because the S1's are better? rarer?or just more desirable?

 

The chassis is AFAIK the same besides the lower sills? Make its easier to get in and out. Not a problem if you are 20 at 55 it can make a difference especially with a fixed seat.

 

On a S2 the short roof takes 30 seconds to put on. on a S1 a bit longer if you can find the Alllen key. Trust me an S1 and an early S2 are virtually identical. Buy and S1 111s or an S2 111s you will want the extra grunt eventually. When it has HGF keep a slush fund of approx 1.5K and get the head ported to approx 175 ish BHP and enjoy a quick go cart.

 

 

Edit, if you are worried about build quality, do not buy a Lotus

[danwebster]

I've just spent 8 months driving an early S2 sport 135 (02 plate) whilst I built my honda powered S1 (which it wouldn't be fair to compare it to, but when it was a standard 111s it was a fair comparison).

 

I would say that the S2 is much more grown up, has a far better interior and feels like a more usable car every day.

 

However, it feels nowhere near as nimble or pointy as an S1 and despite only being a few kilos heavier manages to feel like a much heavier car. Some of that is down to the geometry settings, the narrower front tyres etc, but you can't escape the fact it has bigger and heavier wheels and iron hubs which increase the unsprung weight a lot, giving it a heavier feel.

 

Personally, I would always go for an S1 but I say that with a rather large caveat. If I was going to buy one or the other and leave it absolutely standard then i'd probably go for the S2 - its just a nicer car.

 

But a modified S1 is in a different league as far as i'm concerned - hence thats where all my money has gone!

 

Incidentally, the S2 in question belongs to my sister and she's thinking about selling it...

[AlanS1]

I didn't expect replies so quick. Thanks for the information.(i am impressed with the forum already)

From internet search's the S2 has:

- Different gear change

- Different suspension

- Front wheels are narrower

- Easier roof

- lower sills

Not sure if these actually improve anything though?

 

The reason for asking about build quality, was normally a later edition in a model normally consists of improvements (not always achieved though)

I remember the S1 i had was pretty reliable. Yes you had to maintain, but i do not mind this. I do remember a issue with the clutch on hot days (i had the original red pipe that expended in hot weather).

[Martin R]

Different suspension? I expect 90% of S1's are now on S2 Bilsteins or Nitrons. If the S1 is still on Koni's they will need changing.

[AlanS1]

I've just spent 8 months driving an early S2 sport 135 (02 plate) whilst I built my honda powered S1 (which it wouldn't be fair to compare it to, but when it was a standard 111s it was a fair comparison).

 

I would say that the S2 is much more grown up, has a far better interior and feels like a more usable car every day.

 

However, it feels nowhere near as nimble or pointy as an S1 and despite only being a few kilos heavier manages to feel like a much heavier car. Some of that is down to the geometry settings, the narrower front tyres etc, but you can't escape the fact it has bigger and heavier wheels and iron hubs which increase the unsprung weight a lot, giving it a heavier feel.

 

Personally, I would always go for an S1 but I say that with a rather large caveat. If I was going to buy one or the other and leave it absolutely standard then i'd probably go for the S2 - its just a nicer car.

 

But a modified S1 is in a different league as far as i'm concerned - hence thats where all my money has gone!

 

Incidentally, the S2 in question belongs to my sister and she's thinking about selling it...

 

I read you build dairy yesterday. I take my hat of to you and all done outside. I have spent most of my winter upgrading my GBS Zero from a pinto power to a Zetec power. Yes it now goes great and handles excellent, both on and off the track.(164WHP and 595KG). For some reason i still have not been able to connect with it like i did with the S1 i owned in the past.

This is why i am considering selling it and getting a Elise again.

What i have learnt from owning different cars is to join a forum like this and ask people that actually own the cars before you make a decision on a purchase.

[Steve J]

The S2 is a step up in quality from the S1 and out the box there's not much difference in the way they drive. A geo on the S2 will sort the slight understeer and wider fronts will give better grip.

Loved by early long roof S2 which was only swapped for an Exige.

S2 suspension was better than S1 but since most S1s will have had upgraded shocks then it's nit an out the box comparison anymore.

Really it comes down to whether you like the original or the more user friendly S2.

IMHO if you are after very raw fun then S1. If you want slightly more refinement then early S2, but if you want even more refinement and more power then later S2.

Having said that the differences aren't as large as you would see in successive models of another manufacturer.

You'll enjoy any of them.

Welcome.

[DeanB]

I would recommend buying Haynes' Lotus Elise Enthusiasts Guide. It's not dear on Amazon and is an excellent book. It has a lot of info on the improvements made to the s2 including for example suspension mounting points giving different kinematics and better quality (brought in by GM in fact for the vx220).

 

A lot of the s2 dynamic improvements however were achieved by lower ride height, wider track, better tyres (especially in wet weather) better dampers and close ratio gearbox. All of those mods can be made to an s1.

 

I would agree with pretty much everything posted above tbh (save to say that a geo ie removing front camber shims didn't get rid of all the understeer on my s2). I think Dan Webster's point about about heavier wheels and hubs is a very interesting one and something I would certainly bear in mind if I were you.

Happy hunting!

[AlanS1]

Thanks for all the info and help.

I guess i will have to take a visit to the dealers and see if i am able to drive both cars to compare. Anywhere recommended?

 

However i am swaying towards a S1 after all the comments. Especially that it is more driver focused than comfort.

 

Are there any shows/meets locally in the near future where i would be able to see what is out there?