Hgf + Diy = Kr1

[Martin R]

Good job i have a new K16 on the way then Guy, good idea starting a new thread. Phil, sorry for the hijack again. I could remove the clutter but IMO its all good useful information. We will see how the thread looks when you have finished and review it then.

[KingK_series]

Dont forget the hardness test first. I would have done that and scrapped the head if found to be soft. However i could not afford the approx £1K to £1.5K for a replacment MS2 Head. If you could get one of course.

 

I have 14 brand new ones here, but they will all go onto 2L drysumped engines...

[Phil S1]

Good job i have a new K16 on the way then Guy, good idea starting a new thread. Phil, sorry for the hijack again. I could remove the clutter but IMO its all good useful information. We will see how the thread looks when you have finished and review it then.

 

Thanks Martin, I don't really see it as a hijack, I'm open to any useful information and advice and as you have said earlier, will then come to my own decision on which way to go, bearing in mind I don't have a race team's budget at my disposal

[KingK_series]

Thanks Martin, I don't really see it as a hijack, I'm open to any useful information and advice and as you have said earlier, will then come to my own decision on which way to go, bearing in mind I don't have a race team's budget at my disposal

 

 

A simple FOC hardness test is the way to avoid needing an F1 budget....

[Phil S1]

A little bit more progress on the oil tube.

 

After buying a length of aluminium tube from B and Q I was slightly concerned with how small the bore was, measuring something just under 4mm. By comparison the current cast bore in the block is around 6mm. Martin has been reassured by DVA that this is what he uses but for my own peace of mind I sourced some thinner walled tube from a model shop. This tube has a bore of 5mm

Here's a photo of the 2 side by side for comparison...

 

The tube would only insert an inch or so into my block as it was so I have had to run a long 6mm drill down the cast bore to open it up a bit. (You need a drill with an overall length of around 200mm).

I agree with the tube dimensions posted up earlier in the thread, thanks Martin:

 

Overall length of tube to bottom of dowel hole = 140mm

Cut back length = 10mm

 

Something else mentioned previously, which I had also considered, was the possibility (remote though it may be) of the tube coming unbonded and rotating 180 degrees to block the oil supply to the head.... with pretty bad consequences I'd imagine. As I say, it would be a one in a million chance but Captain Paranoia made me get my drill out and I've ended up with what you see below.

I guess there's still a chance that a film of the Loctite 648 could find it's way over the 2 holes during assembly and block them anyway, in which case I'll be no better off, but I figure it must be better than nothing?

 

Open to alternative ideas as ever...

[KingK_series]

A little bit more progress on the oil tube.

 

After buying a length of aluminium tube from B and Q I was slightly concerned with how small the bore was, measuring something just under 4mm. By comparison the current cast bore in the block is around 6mm. Martin has been reassured by DVA that this is what he uses but for my own peace of mind I sourced some thinner walled tube from a model shop. This tube has a bore of 5mm

Here's a photo of the 2 side by side for comparison...

 

The tube would only insert an inch or so into my block as it was so I have had to run a long 6mm drill down the cast bore to open it up a bit. (You need a drill with an overall length of around 200mm).

I agree with the tube dimensions posted up earlier in the thread, thanks Martin:

 

Overall length of tube to bottom of dowel hole = 140mm

Cut back length = 10mm

 

Something else mentioned previously, which I had also considered, was the possibility (remote though it may be) of the tube coming unbonded and rotating 180 degrees to block the oil supply to the head.... with pretty bad consequences I'd imagine. As I say, it would be a one in a million chance but Captain Paranoia made me get my drill out and I've ended up with what you see below.

I guess there's still a chance that a film of the Loctite 648 could find it's way over the 2 holes during assembly and block them anyway, in which case I'll be no better off, but I figure it must be better than nothing?

 

Open to alternative ideas as ever...

 

 

 

yes but why are you doing this?

 

 

is your block cracked?

 

- if so how to you feel about going through all this, and the block just falling apart in ?????? so many miles

 

- why not just get a new block.

 

 

however be 100% certain of this - oil gets into the coolant because the inherant cooling problems with this engiene CAUSE that to happen, and that has absolutely nothing to do with crackd blocks

 

 

Anyone promoting the sleeved repair of a cracked block has absolutely no idea of the first principles of good engine building, if fact you'd have to say such a person was ignorant

 

 

ANY CRACKED BLOCK IS SCRAP......... really simple.

[JonS]

Can we stick to technical advice please.

[KingK_series]

Can we stick to technical advice please.

 

 

that is technical advice

 

- if the block is cracked replace it

 

cracked blocks are extremely rare, except where an engine has been buzzed really badly or, verniers slipped/belt broke and valves have broken causing massive damage

 

- if in any doubt crack test the block, it costs nothing

 

but no engine builder worth his salt would ever use a cracked block, any more than a cracked crank or rod.

 

and finally oil gets into the coolant on K series engines because the head gets too hot from poor coolant management which bows the head off the gasket and therefore leaks coolant and oil.

[JonS]

I think we all know which part of your post I was referring to. You could have just used the post above from this morning without potentially implementing another attack on other builders and get your point across much easier and calmer.

 

Enough said. Sorry for the thread drift again Phil.

[Phil S1]

No problem Jon.

 

To answer the question of why am I doing this? For those that don't already know, it is a mod recommended by Dave Andrews, for whom I have a great deal of respect and it may prevent a potential source of oil contamination of the coolant. It's also a relatively straight forward mod to do whilst the head is off, in the same way as the oil pump mod is.

Is my block cracked in this area? Not as far as I'm aware and I certainly don't intend going to the trouble and expense of having it crack tested purely out of curiosity. My engine has never been 'buzzed' or overheated or suffered any broken belts, valves etc... so there's absolutely no reason why it should be.

[KingK_series]

No problem Jon.

 

To answer the question of why am I doing this? For those that don't already know, it is a mod recommended by Dave Andrews, for whom I have a great deal of respect and it may prevent a potential source of oil contamination of the coolant. It's also a relatively straight forward mod to do whilst the head is off, in the same way as the oil pump mod is.

Is my block cracked in this area? Not as far as I'm aware and I certainly don't intend going to the trouble and expense of having it crack tested purely out of curiosity. My engine has never been 'buzzed' or overheated or suffered any broken belts, valves etc... so there's absolutely no reason why it should be.

 

 

 

don't get it - are you expecting to crack the block???

 

 

I suspect it's one of those crackpot mods that has been contrived because someone has mistaken the cause of oil/water contamination, no self respecting competant engine builder would ever put a cracked block back into service. A crack test will cost you 10 quid.

 

- you can follow the logic from there.

[KingK_series]

No problem Jon.

 

To answer the question of why am I doing this? For those that don't already know, it is a mod recommended by Dave Andrews, for whom I have a great deal of respect and it may prevent a potential source of oil contamination of the coolant. It's also a relatively straight forward mod to do whilst the head is off, in the same way as the oil pump mod is.

Is my block cracked in this area? Not as far as I'm aware and I certainly don't intend going to the trouble and expense of having it crack tested purely out of curiosity. My engine has never been 'buzzed' or overheated or suffered any broken belts, valves etc... so there's absolutely no reason why it should be.

 

 

Here is the cover of a good book on engine building, it says much the same as any other good book, or any good competant engine builder will tell you.

 

 

 

 

here is the page on block inspection - it is a clear given, ANY cracked block should be discarded, as a basic tentant of good practice. No one in their right mind would use a damaged or cracked block unless thee was no alternative - is it was the only casting available, and remedial work to the crack [not the oilway] was possible. Blocks are structurally integral to the performance/reliability of an engine...........do people not get this???

 

 

 

however I suspect that this mod has come about from a complete misunderstanding of how oil gets into the coolant, and there probably never were any cracked blocks at the oilway ever - it is a most unlikely place to crack unless the machining was off, and certainly WOULD NOT HAPPEN from loading by the headbolts.

[Elise+Imp]

ok, rather than throwing suggestions that other people know nothing , please educate us on how exactly oil get's into the coolant?

[KingK_series]

ok, rather than throwing suggestions that other people know nothing , please educate us on how exactly oil get's into the coolant?

 

I have given that several times in the above thread, however once more;-

 

 

The K series problem, - it was designed [like the honda k20a2] before computer aided design allowed accurate coolant modelling analysis, - so what happens is there is a hotspot in the engine, precisely - between 1 and 2, Because of the lightweight construction of this engine [not much metal - like a proper competition engine [ie F1] that hotspot causes the metal at that point to expand more than the rest of the engine - ie it distorts, specifically the head bows with the apex over the church window between 1 and 2 on the exhaust side. As the head bows, or bananas, call it what you will, compression loading is lost over that church window and you see fluid loss the elastomer at that point - that tends to see small amounts of coolant get into the oil, which generally gets burnt off, so it does not get noticed until the elastomer detaches. Small amounts of oil also gets into the coolant. This process by vitrue of the fact that coolant loss creates air pockets - exponetially worsens the situation and causes the aluminium in the head to lose it's heat treatment [soften] and progressively more coolant loss and oil loss. Short, traffic influenced journeys are much worse on the engine than banzai laps on track, because it is the on/off trottle that causes the temp gradients which cause the distortion.

 

 

The real solution is to stop that temp gradient happening across the engine - ie stop nos 3/4 running so much cooler than 1/2, that can only be done with a high pressure water pump, like that common on race engines [including the BTCC Honda K20A2] and all my engines, and modifying the block to give greater flow past 1 and 2 than 3 and 4, also achieved on my engines after significant work.

 

Many less than up to the minute "modern" engines suffer this issue, however cope better because they are made so heavy that they are less prone to distort under such thermal stress, - such is the K20A2 , however in competition modifications are often made to the block as well as fitting a decent water pump to reduce the issue, because as I have found reducing the temp differences across all 4 cylinders means you can get more ignition advance, which means more efficient combustion and hence more torque.

 

That is as complete as an explanation as I am prepared to give before my book gets published, but should be enough to enable people to understand that oil leaks from the block oilway are not a coomon cause, if ever in the saga of the K series "HGF". I suspect it has been an all too typical misreading of the issue.

[Phil S1]

Got a few more jobs done over the weekend, nothing to really warrant any more photos though.

The oil tube is glued in place but I need to get a new seal before I can assemble the oil pump back onto the block. Apart from that I removed the air filter / fuel filter assembly and all the associated wiring such that I could rub down the roll bar stays and give them a coat of POR15 (I still had some left from the suspension refresh a while ago). Whilst that lot was off I also disconnected and cleaned up some of the earth connections and gave the various connector blocks a clean up with some switch cleaner.

The only other job I got done was to connect the hose pipe up to the cooling system and flush out the rad of any remaining old coolant.