Hgf + Diy = Kr1

[KingK_series]

Simon, whilst we are on the subject of cooling what water pump do you recommend ? OE ? or are there better alternatives ? Fitting a PRT is a given obviously.

 

not at the moment, but I keep getting asked

 

here is a pic

 

http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33140&p=398927#p398927

[Phil S1]

Simon,

Thanks for your thoughts, plenty of information to absorb there. As Martin says, interesting to hear about the valve colours.

[KingK_series]

Simon,

Thanks for your thoughts, plenty of information to absorb there. As Martin says, interesting to hear about the valve colours.

 

 

you must get it hardness tested

 

Roger knows where to get that done FOC

 

- here, or just send it yourself

[KingK_series]

Phil, that is a decent price for quite a bit of work.When you put the head back on with the steel dowels, it might be worth taking a small amount off the length. Apparently a few have been slightly too long and have stopped the head seating properly after.

 

Some pics from my block as promised. The first one is of the front top face dowel hole. You can see the oilway in the middle of the hole from the oil pump. This lubricates the head.

 

 

The next pic shows where the oil pump bolts on to the crank. I have labelled the holes. The arrows show the approximate direction of the oil flow to and from the pump rotor.

 

1. Is the oil flow from the sump.

2. Is the oil flow to the oil filter.

3. Is the oil flow back from the oil filter.

4. Is the oil flow to the crank etc.

5. Is the oil flow to the head via the front face of the block and the dowel hole.

 

 

I decided to try and get a reasonably accurate measurment of the front oil way. To this end i found a drill that went in the hole and is a reasonable fit. For some reason an 8mm drill would not go in. However a 5/16 of an inch would. This makes the hole approx 7.95mm in diameter.

 

 

I then measured from the top face to the drill using my vernier calipers. It turned out to be 143mm.

 

 

I then measured the the bottom of the dowel hole from the top face this was approx 11mm.

143mm - 11mm = 132mm. This should be a fairly accurate measurment of the oilway length. The last pic shows the 6mm thin walled ally tube i am going to use the sleeve the oilway and its eventual resting place.

 

 

Phil, hope this helps a bit. I am going to email DVA regarding the end profile of the pipe to prevent any confusion. You should be able to relate some of this to the oil pump mods pic on his website.

 

 

This is what i have decided to do regarding the ally pipe after some advice from DVA. He reommends cutting the pipe up the middle longways for approx 8mm. I decided to do mine 10mm to make sure it clears all the hole. You then cut across the pipe and are left with this.

 

 

I obviously cleaned all the ends with a small file to remove any swarf etc. I also used a larger drill to remove the fraze from the internal face of the pipe. You are then left with this ready to fit in the block. Hopefully a reasonable pic.

 

 

You then just need to fit it to the block using the afore mentioned Loctite 648. I made my pipe approx 140mm long to go from the bottom of the hole to the bottom of the dowel hole. The long face left needs to go against the block face to prevent blocking the oil flow to the head. I can see when mine is as the block is on the table. A mirror may help if the block is in the car.

 

To be continued.

 

 

don't get this?

 

did your block crack?

 

never seen that before myself ..... in sooooooooooo many engines.

[Martin R]

Simon, mine did not. However Phil has been getting some oily residue in his coolant. This could be from across the fire ring as i had on my MS2 head. It can also apparently come from the front oilway being slightly cracked and the cracks opening up when the head is torqued down.

 

The sleeving of the oilway is a preventative measure if this is the case. I dont think it is that common but it does happen.

[KingK_series]

Simon, mine did not. However Phil has been getting some oily residue in his coolant. This could be from across the fire ring as i had on my MS2 head. It can also apparently come from the front oilway being slightly cracked and the cracks opening up when the head is torqued down. The sleeving of the oilway is a preventative measure if this is the case. I dont think it is that common but it does happen.

 

 

You will not get oil coming across the firering - there isn't more than a trace of oil on the liners above the piston rings, unless there is something very wrong with the bores/rings.

 

 

if the block has cracked anywhere, but a crack vertically up the front of the engine [head oil feed] that is a MAJOR structural failure - use a new block, bodging a fix is just inviting more failure. However IF your block was cracked up that oil passage and IF your block was the last one on the planet, what are you going to do to stop the crack propogating and becoming a massive structural failure, especially at the front of the engine where there is so much vibration?

 

crazy absolutely crazy ....... and this whole "fix" can only come from one person..... the complete fool.

 

 

oil does get into the coolant, every time you come off the throttle and get on the brakes, ie when you hit a hot engine with cold water that suddenly is not hot [ie off throttle]

 

- it is the problem with K.

 

but it's a leak past the elastomer that separates oil and water - as described above - for the most part because the water is pressurised there it is tiny amounts of water that gets into the oil, but you never notice because it gets burnt off, Eventually it gets bad enough for oil and water to swap, - the problem becomes noticable when the resultant air pockets are bad enough to cause sufficient overheating to soften the head and or detach the elastomer from the core plate.

 

 

 

ccracked oilway - complete red herring.

 

 

and huge risks if that tube moves and blocks oil into the head which will toast springs tappetts and let valves go a wandering possibly into pistons.

 

mad mad mad....

[Martin R]

Simon, an interesting point. Calm down you will do yourself a mischief A friendly reminder, this is MLOC and not SELOC or anywhere else. We try and help each other and save each other a few bob by doing our own DIY.

 

We have to rely on information we pick up. We are also adult enough to filter this information and act as we see fit ( rightly or wrongly as it happens ) Now back to oily residues. I did not say it was oil as there was not enough present to tell what it was. However a couple of pics.

 

Coolant bottle

 

 

 

Also what come out of it.

 

 

Also one of what caused it on my MS2 head. You will notice the slight indent on the fire ring. It runs from about 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock on number 1. This may have been caused by the head being soft. However i had to make do with a peen and skim for a couple of reasons. One the rarity of MS 2 heads. Two the cost if i could find one. I used an MLS gasket and its still going strong.

 

 

 

Phil, sorry about the drifting on your thread. It will keep us busy till the head is done

[KingK_series]

Simon, an interesting point. Calm down you will do yourself a mischief A friendly reminder, this is MLOC and not SELOC or anywhere else. We try and help each other and save each other a few bob by doing our own DIY.

 

We have to rely on information we pick up. We are also adult enough to filter this information and act as we see fit ( rightly or wrongly as it happens ) Now back to oily residues. I did not say it was oil as there was not enough present to tell what it was. However a couple of pics.

 

Coolant bottle

 

 

 

Also what come out of it.

 

 

Also one of what caused it on my MS2 head. You will notice the slight indent on the fire ring. It runs from about 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock on number 1. This may have been caused by the head being soft. However i had to make do with a peen and skim for a couple of reasons. One the rarity of MS 2 heads. Two the cost if i could find one. I used an MLS gasket and its still going strong.

 

 

 

Phil, sorry about the drifting on your thread. It will keep us busy till the head is done

 

 

 

Yes classic head failure ie called "HGF" but it isn't, it is head failure, note white exhaust valves. -

 

with an indentation under the firering as you descibe, I'd bet £100 quid your head is horribly cooked and gone soft.

 

 

using the shim that comes with the Rover MLS will bandage the issue, but I guarantee you you will have the same thing happen again.

 

The oil in your coolant will have got into the coolant by leaking from the church windows [where the longbolt emerges from the block] between no 1and and 2/3 on exhaust side.

 

the only way to stop this is to modify the waterflow through the engine, fit a proper competition pump,,,,,,, plus correct liner height, good hard head, steel dowels, PRT, OEM payen gasket, new longbolts, etc that everyone knows about.

 

 

though the latter mods are a good step forward and do mitigate the problem significantly

 

 

 

 

on the bright side you do not need a MS2 head with a 1.8L running up to 32.5/27.5mm valves, in fact the k16 head inserted with bigger seats will give a better port shape and hence flow than a MS2, I only use MS2's for 2Ls running much bigger valves.

[lummo]

Simon

 

I've got an S1 111S (vvc). I too am getting traces of 'residue' in my coolant tank. It's not as bad as Phil's, but there nontheless:

 

 

 

I've had a couple of garages look at it (without taking anything apart), with inconclusive results. It's been like this for well over a year now, with no obvious adverse side effects. It seems to be running well. Temperatures are 'normal'.

 

What would your advice be in such circumstances? In your opinion, should I just continue to run the car, or should I be doing something about it, and if so, what?

 

Please bear in mind that this is not a race or track car, and has never been 'tuned' in any way (aprt from a hurricane & sports exhaust). It is just used for normal road use. Also, I do not have a race-team budget at my disposal!

 

Your technical opinion on this would be much appreciated, and apologies to Phil for the thread drift

[KingK_series]

Simon

 

I've got an S1 111S (vvc). I too am getting traces of 'residue' in my coolant tank. It's not as bad as Phil's, but there nontheless:

 

 

 

I've had a couple of garages look at it (without taking anything apart), with inconclusive results. It's been like this for well over a year now, with no obvious adverse side effects. It seems to be running well. Temperatures are 'normal'.

 

What would your advice be in such circumstances? In your opinion, should I just continue to run the car, or should I be doing something about it, and if so, what?

 

Please bear in mind that this is not a race or track car, and has never been 'tuned' in any way (aprt from a hurricane & sports exhaust). It is just used for normal road use. Also, I do not have a race-team budget at my disposal!

 

Your technical opinion on this would be much appreciated, and apologies to Phil for the thread drift

 

 

First off I'd drain the coolant - completely, and fit a PRT, then use it and see if you get the same. [ best to take front clam off and fit a proper all ally rad too.

 

It looks very white in your pic, usually the emulsion [oil water mix] is a tan/brown colour.

 

anyway if it comes back you have got typical K "they call it HGF failure', but it's not, it's head failure or the head has bananered and is leaking.

 

- you can go on running it - I got 22,000 miles out of a fubared engine just by keeping it topped up with coolant and oil before I got stranded on the motorway and had to be recovered. Known lots of people who have done that and got 100,000 plus plus miles out of their K - and I knew it was fubared, I just kept going to see what I could get out of it, having said that when I did get stuck it was on the A4 in f888ing freezing snow and it took 7 hours to be recovered home, so wasn't too happy at that point , but I've done it been there -

 

 

the trouble is if you do that you will scrap the head, and it's only going to get harder to get them.

 

I am BTW in the process of doing my own head casting...... but that is something else.

 

if you strip engine now, or after running it a bit with fresh coolant, you have the oppertunity to put all to rights and maybe, just maybe the head will still be fit for use.

[Martin R]

Simon, thanks for that and i agree i bandaged the issue with a peen, skim and MLS gasket. Your post invites a couple of further questions.

Were do i get a competion water pump from ? Recommendations ?

You say a K16 head can be modified to suit. Are you talking about a VVC head or a standard K16 head ?

[lummo]

 

if you strip engine now, or after running it a bit with fresh coolant, you have the oppertunity to put all to rights and maybe, just maybe the head will still be fit for use.

 

 

If I were to take remedial action now, by "put all to rights", would you suggest:

 

1. Fit PRT

2. Check/adjust liner stand-proud

3. Fit MLS gasket

 

or would you suggest it needs more? (Such as Martin's peen/skim "bandage", or something else?)

 

Apologies also to Martin for hijacking his hijacked thread

[Martin R]

Dont forget the hardness test first. I would have done that and scrapped the head if found to be soft. However i could not afford the approx £1K to £1.5K for a replacment MS2 Head. If you could get one of course.

[lummo]

Dont forget the hardness test first. I would have done that and scrapped the head if found to be soft. However i could not afford the approx £1K to £1.5K for a replacment MS2 Head. If you could get one of course.

 

Good point, thanks Martin.

 

In order to not clutter Phil's thread any more, I've opened a new thread on this subject here ---> http://www.midlandslotus.co.uk/forum/topic/59403-non-hgf-non-diy-hijack-avoidance-thread/

[KingK_series]

Simon, thanks for that and i agree i bandaged the issue with a peen, skim and MLS gasket. Your post invites a couple of further questions.

Were do i get a competion water pump from ? Recommendations ?

You say a K16 head can be modified to suit. Are you talking about a VVC head or a standard K16 head ?

 

 

K 16 head is a standard 120bhp head, the internal porting was used in a vvc casting to give the special 5 off BTTCC heads used by Judd though it's a lot of porting

 

using a standard head will however give a better port shape up to 32/33mm valve size, ditto exhausts.

 

no proper competition pump is commercially available, I have made them only for my own engines... see SE thread.... but people keep asking.....we'll see