KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 Interesting, since WSR say your engine was not used in the BTCC, but was put into the Turkington MG car after the 2006 season finished and the car was sold overseas. I think you are being inaccurate in your information when you state that it was used in the 2006 BTCC. However, it does look an impressive engine. How much would it be to have one like that? £20k is what I heard. No, the engine did run in Colin's car in 2006, and all the guy's at WSR were very complimentry about the engine, not only more power and torque than the Judd, but it just went better - much sharper. It was built because the Judd's cost 6 grand to rebuild, but that didn't include new valves and the valves which were off the shelf proved an issue, can't remember which race it was but a valve broke causing Colin a DNF. this is a pic of one of Judd's valves As a result Dick Bennetts who had been in touch for some months, asked me to put an engine together for 2006, [ there was a very strong feeling that the team could win the 2006 season, they just needed a bit more out of the engine, and for it not to break, the valve failure in the Judd was galling] which was the engine in the pic, - that was very short notice to do a whole engine with all new cams, crank, rods pistons all of which had to meet BTCC regs, and the engine got finished for the last race, in the end the time could not be found to map it, so Colin finished the season with the judd, and my engine was installed for 2006 testing for the following season. Dick had at that point obtained a waiver from Alan Gow to run the BTCC spec car with my engine for 2007 and a weight penalty in a mixed grid of BTCC and S2000 spec cars. Unfortunately the 2007 plans came unstuck when without MGRover sponsorship, RAC demanded Dick found another marque in production to race in their colours. BMW became a very late choice, - if I remember the cars arrived just 2 weeks before the first race in the 2007 season, losing all opportunities to test the BMW and consequently the team spent the 2007 learning the new car. Bottom line the engine was delivered in 2006, it did run in Colin's car, it was a better engine than the Judd, Steve Buckle [with a lifetime of experience in professional race team experience at the highest levels] the head mechanic described the difference as "night and day" with the Judd, and it was a cause of huge disappointment that not only did it prove to late to race in the 2006 season, but that RAC would not afford the chance to run it in 2007. Having come close with the best handling car in 2006, Colin and the team felt all they needed was a better engine to win in 2007, as it was they slipped back with the BMW which they had had no time to familiarise themselves with. The car is now racing under new ownership. Simon, it is great to develop the engines but there are some things that are just facts of life in this business: 1) Only the products speak for themselves. Occasionally they get quashed, but usually they win out. 2) Everyone trying to push the boundary or develop new products get praised and criticised in varying measure, sometimes justified but a lot of the time highly unjustified. To resolve this you can only really fall back on the product speaking for itself (see item 1....). No one was mocking you here, Scuffers et al don't even post on here. We all understand that Elise's work in significant part due to their lack of weight but we also have a reasonable view of widely proven power, weight, reliability and other real world requirements (availability, support etc). You can argue that the K's you build prove all these points, but like it or not they currently don't. They are purely a work in progress proof of concept that very few other people have first hand experience of. As I said before, I wish you well in your work but please stick to the development and letting the engines speak for themselves. Finally, you yourself mention you do this outside of core work. In any figures you mention you have to be fair on the commerical rates if you want anyone else to adopt it in the future, whether it be costs of engine build time, components, development (previous and future), customer support, VAT and, god forbid, profit. Much of the cost of an engine isn't in pure components. All the options cost serious money and ultimately proven ability, availability and customer support are all critical in anything other than a theoretical argument. To put it another way, a well built commercial Kent engine for Formula Ford is c.£3k+ and 90% of the components are stock Ford items..... Well two things there, car weights are irrelevant, because so much gets done to a car when an engine is changed, but you cannot deny the weight of an engine, a honda engine is not "just 15kg" heavier than a K series engine, that is scuffhams' lie [sorry advertising/merchantising] and he and others have gone to great lengths to perpetuate this lie. Finally people are now starting to build hondas - scuffham did it for lot though he wouldn't admit it, I remember lots of jokes at the time, and that costs loads more over the 10/11 grand cost the honda merchants quote. Did you weigh your duratec engine before you fitted it? Apologies if it's me being thick, but don't you mean 15kg heavier than a K? Just as a matter of interest, does anyone know the weight difference between the 'K' fitted to the early S2s and the Toyota engine that Lotus replaced it with? my apologies, been working all hours installing an engine this week and loads of typos have got into my posts written knackered in the small hours - No, but I can confirm that my Duratec (with lightened flywheel, exhaust manifold, smaller alternator etc) was 745kg with from memory an indicated 20L of fuel on board. That makes it about the same as a standard car in my book, or as close as you care for a road car. that is the most spurious argument I have ever heard deployed in this context.
chorton_1 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 It isn't spurious Simon. The point is that the conversion I have, in real world terms, weighs no more than it did when it was produced as a standard S1. That isn't to say you couldn't make it lighter, or indeed make a K-series lighter still, however the transplant does not change the real world handling of the car from the standard setup that people on here have first hand experience of. Put another way, the Elise is a road going sportscar with hundreds of compromises to give real world practicality, and this isn't diminished by a transplant. Therefore the discussion on weight difference isn't a big issue for 99% of users in my, and many others, opinion. If this becomes a discussion about pure racing, then I can talk from first hand personal results: in 6 years of doing the VSCC Pomeroy Trophy I have never been beaten by an Elise variant, whether it be an S1 in various forms, VX220 Turbo or S2 Cup 260. There are plenty of options that could be quicker (I wait for MilesH to turn up in a well prepped and well driven car) but it's held it's own so far. I stress I'm not having a go at your work but once again, and saying it very slowly, let the engines and race results speak for themselves when they are in the field.
KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 It isn't spurious Simon. The point is that the conversion I have, in real world terms, weighs no more than it did when it was produced as a standard S1. That isn't to say you couldn't make it lighter, or indeed make a K-series lighter still, however the transplant does not change the real world handling of the car from the standard setup that people on here have first hand experience of. Put another way, the Elise is a road going sportscar with hundreds of compromises to give real world practicality, and this isn't diminished by a transplant. Therefore the discussion on weight difference isn't a big issue for 99% of users in my, and many others, opinion. If this becomes a discussion about pure racing, then I can talk from first hand personal results: in 6 years of doing the VSCC Pomeroy Trophy I have never been beaten by an Elise variant, whether it be an S1 in various forms, VX220 Turbo or S2 Cup 260. There are plenty of options that could be quicker (I wait for MilesH to turn up in a well prepped and well driven car) but it's held it's own so far. I stress I'm not having a go at your work but once again, and saying it very slowly, let the engines and race results speak for themselves when they are in the field. Yes it is spurious, because if you take out a K, and your heavy baffled mild steel OEM exhaust and heavens knows what else, maybe you end up within a shout of your original car weight, but if you fit a straight through ss exhaust plus whatever else you will lighten your K series car, the point is that all that car lightening costs money over whatever you spend on an engine. I repeat my Standard S1 with standard tank seats clams etc etc etc weighs less than 700 kg with an almost standard K, - whereas all honda Elise's I have seen on corner weights are as much as 800kg+, - my dry sumped 2Ls weigh a lot less than the K in my S1. Hondas will add 60kg over the weight of my drysumped 2L and 75kg as a sc Honda, - that is a lot of weight in a car that is excessively rear biased. A far as my engines are concerned, there are several that have been racing for years, and many more projects have either come to fruition, or are about to, two more engine specs just beginning - the hillclimber and a plenum based wet sumped road engine, I will make those public in due course, the 2006 BTCC engine merely makes it clear just how much work has been done, and that it can be done successfully, ie the history of badly built Ks by the usual suspects, is exactly that - and it doesn't need to be like that. For the record so much of the frustration with that engine was not being able to develop parts of the install that mine inherited from the Judd engined car - ie the exhaust which was not tuned to my cam, and parts of the induction, between TB and filter, I know there was a lot more to come out of that had only I been given the chance, as it is that engine is now well overtaken by engines that do not have to meet the restrictive BTCC regs, remember my BTCC engine had to meet regs stipulating LESS cam than a stock Honda k20a2, and my engine ran LESS valve, a wet sump, a single TB and gave 50bhp MORE than said STOCK na hondas.
Scuffers Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 so, that's 715.5Kg's wet, (with ~20L fuel). this was 3+ years ago, this car actually exists, has now done a huge race mileage, and holds the lap records at some ccts (Including Bathurst). The point is, it's a car that actually is out there running, and have given it's owner 3+ years of trouble free racing all on an essentially standard K20 engine (with bolt-ons). or this one, that took Jamie Willson to the 2010 Time attack championship victory and has started this years campaign with a win in round 1. Or this one that took the 2009 NSW ProSports championship title. so, define spurious
KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 so, that's 715.5Kg's wet, (with ~20L fuel). this was 3+ years ago, this car actually exists, has now done a huge race mileage, and holds the lap records at some ccts (Including Bathurst). The point is, it's a car that actually is out there running, and have given it's owner 3+ years of trouble free racing all on an essentially standard K20 engine (with bolt-ons). or this one, that took Jamie Willson to the 2010 Time attack championship victory and has started this years campaign with a win in round 1. Or this one that took the 2009 NSW ProSports championship title. so, define spurious Well firstly all your series are just clubman, with weekend drivers, - I'll make it really clear - you have repeatedly said that the honda engine weighs only 15 kg more than a stock Rover that is not only untrue, but it is a long long way from the truth and you know it. - here is an honest technical view of the Honda K20A2, and their weaknesses. - It's badly balanced by Rover's standards, the crank-set weighs a ton and won't rev, the crank is very undercounterweighted, it throws rods, the pistons weigh a ton, which causes massive secondary vibrations, it is not the answer... Why don't I like Honda K20's
chorton_1 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Simon (E), the point is that whether you like Honda's or not, or agree with the quality of engineering or not, they are extremely proven in competition. Even if the cars weigh 100kg more then it's irrelevant - they are still proven winners. You are exceedingly welcome to prove the concept flawed, but this can only be done with cars in the field. Having un-named cars and projects just around the corner just isn't a substitute I'm afraid. My point on weights isn't a dispute over whether a K-series or any other option can be built lighter or even improved, merely that my Duratec is the same as a stock S1 (given that they were quoted 725kg wet and mine at 745kg has iron disks and an indicated 20L fuel). Therefore balance is unchanged from stock and so doesn't adversely affect the car from factory (and almost universally praised) balance. As an everyday road going sportscar this is fine by me regardless of what the base engine weight is in either K-Series or Duratec guise.
KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 Simon (E), the point is that whether you like Honda's or not, or agree with the quality of engineering or not, they are extremely proven in competition. Even if the cars weigh 100kg more then it's irrelevant - they are still proven winners. You are exceedingly welcome to prove the concept flawed, but this can only be done with cars in the field. Having un-named cars and projects just around the corner just isn't a substitute I'm afraid. My point on weights isn't a dispute over whether a K-series or any other option can be built lighter or even improved, merely that my Duratec is the same as a stock S1 (given that they were quoted 725kg wet and mine at 745kg has iron disks and an indicated 20L fuel). Therefore balance is unchanged from stock and so doesn't adversely affect the car from factory (and almost universally praised) balance. As an everyday road going sportscar this is fine by me regardless of what the base engine weight is in either K-Series or Duratec guise. And their weakness have been uncovered if not widely reported on the forums - see - Why don't I like Honda K20's All the hondas that I possess [5] come out of Elises and all threw rods. You miss the point entirely - you have still added weight to your car, and not improved the weight distribution but more importantly scuffham et al have repeatedly posted that the Honda engine only weighs 15kg more than a stock Rover, which is absolutely not true - a lie in fact.
chorton_1 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 No Simon, you miss the point - it is the same weight now as its always been. I haven't added any weight at all !!! I'm not arguing that I could make it lighter, or with other options lighter still, but that isn't the same thing at all. It's the same weight as Lotus produced the car, and as the press loved.
KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 No Simon, you miss the point - it is the same weight now as its always been. I haven't added any weight at all !!! I'm not arguing that I could make it lighter, or with other options lighter still, but that isn't the same thing at all. It's the same weight as Lotus produced the car, and as the press loved. you said yours was 745 after and 725 before however you miss the point again - any weight saving costs money , on top of any conversion, and if you can have a smooth light reliable K why bother putting in a heavy, rough running, engine out of a scra[pper with heavy cast pistons, weak oem rods, unbalanced undercounterweighted cranks etc etc etc.
richbk Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 VERY VERY BORED with this now 5 pages of the same comments time and again, bringing nothing constructive to the forum or its members. just an apparent need to tell me things i dont need to know, about engines, people , experiences that i wont ever interact with. please stop richbk
Scuffers Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 VERY VERY BORED with this now could not agree more.... it's almost 10 years on now, and seemingly, nothing has changed.....
chorton_1 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 No Simon, 725kg is the Lotus quoted wet weight when the S1 came out, I.e. including fluids required to run but minus fuel. This tallies roughly with other cars I've seen weighed, so I'm happy to accept it. Why did I put in a Duratec with such 'poor design'? Well, I developed the 300bhp 2.3L Duratec for Formula Atlantic whilst at Cosworth. During the 3 seasons and 60 carcasses built (and rebuilt ) it ran across the whole grid it suffered <0.5% race DNF's, so pretty good. the offer came to buy a used low mileage CSR260 dyno engine, an engine with similarly low failure rate across a race series and a large number of road cars. The bullet proof reliability, reasonably decent power output and chance to put an authentic Cosworth engine into a Lotus were enough for me. The conversion has done everything it set out to do - powerful, reliable and great fun. It's no heavier than standard, so I'd say that's a pretty fair choice. People chose options for all kinds of reasons. Previous engine failure, support, proven reliability, second hand availability etc etc. Am I happy with my choice? Definitely. Would I recommend a Duratec? Definitely. I like new engine developments but freely appreciate the merits of other options for a variety of reasons, technical and otherwise.
KingK_series Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 could not agree more.... it's almost 10 years on now, and seemingly, nothing has changed..... Everything has changed - I hear Lotus dealers declaring the honda conversion market dead, for want of engines, even Maidstone quoting huge sums to rebuild A2's with new rods and pistons to make something like a useful engine All my work, of which the BTCC engine was a very early example is coming to fruition nicely and people are being very complimentry about the results and asking how it can be made available to more people. As far as being stuck is concerned.... that wouldn't be K, the engine has moved forward to new levels and the world of your badly built misunderstood efforts is no longer an imperative. VERY VERY BORED with this now 5 pages of the same comments time and again, bringing nothing constructive to the forum or its members. just an apparent need to tell me things i dont need to know, about engines, people , experiences that i wont ever interact with. please stop richbk then don't read the thread, go do something else with your time. No Simon, 725kg is the Lotus quoted wet weight when the S1 came out, I.e. including fluids required to run but minus fuel. This tallies roughly with other cars I've seen weighed, so I'm happy to accept it. Why did I put in a Duratec with such 'poor design'? Well, I developed the 300bhp 2.3L Duratec for Formula Atlantic whilst at Cosworth. During the 3 seasons and 60 carcasses built (and rebuilt ) it ran across the whole grid it suffered <0.5% race DNF's, so pretty good. the offer came to buy a used low mileage CSR260 dyno engine, an engine with similarly low failure rate across a race series and a large number of road cars. The bullet proof reliability, reasonably decent power output and chance to put an authentic Cosworth engine into a Lotus were enough for me. The conversion has done everything it set out to do - powerful, reliable and great fun. It's no heavier than standard, so I'd say that's a pretty fair choice. People chose options for all kinds of reasons. Previous engine failure, support, proven reliability, second hand availability etc etc. Am I happy with my choice? Definitely. Would I recommend a Duratec? Definitely. I like new engine developments but freely appreciate the merits of other options for a variety of reasons, technical and otherwise. well firstly I take any manufacturers published curb weight with a large pinch of salt, secondly I am even more skeptical of anyone who hasn't or won't admit to weighing their honda or duratec engine to compare to their K, and thirdly I'd like you to explain how if you are using the same box and shafts, how SWLotus's weight for a duratec of 112kg cannot possibly add weight when a stock K weighs 84.5kg? thats 27.5kg difference conservatively. The difference with a honda is A LOT MORE! Perhaps I can persuade you to exchange cars round Silverstone for a few laps this year? so you can feel a proper K? Maybe you'll be surprised???
fentuz Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Usual elises.co.uk is not a bad source of information http://www.elises.co.uk/models/s1/index.html Weight The original target weight fot he Elise was 550kg. The first brochures list it at 690kg with a 39%/61%, front/rear distribution. Early Elises weighed in around 725kg and various modifications have meant that the standard car now weighs 755kg and the 111S weighs in at 770kg. The Elise Sport 190 is 670kg. so, production elises S1 were between 725 and 770kg depending of the version... One of the rescent good stuff about k series seems to be the spanish way http://www.vgkracing.com/company.php Any thoughts?
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