Kingk Engine Graph

[Pesky]

Same old, same old, Simon, I think Mario Balotelli must be one of your proteges - "Why always me?"

[KingK_series]

Same old, same old, Simon, I think Mario Balotelli must be one of your proteges - "Why always me?"

 

 

thats because you have a heavy crude old old lump in yours pesky.....

 

thing is pesky ------ you used to bang on and on and on about how the K couldn't do more than 200bhp without blowing up, and to get your 220bhp you had to spend all that money and accept all the weight penalty of putting in a honda - well you have been proved totally wrong, - way back in 2006 this was a reliable 270bhp engine on a plenum, at 78kg 48kg less than your honda k20 engine weight

 

 

--------- so who has been playing the same old same old broken record......?

[Pesky]

thats because you have a heavy crude old old lump in yours pesky.....

 

Please leave out the personal comments - let's talk engines

[KingK_series]

Please leave out the personal comments - let's talk engines

 

 

ok Pesky

 

have you weighed your engine?

 

have you read my technical analysis of the honda k20a2?

 

how much did you pay for your honda?

 

and how much power torque do you have?

[Pesky]

Simon

 

1. Nope not weighed it. I've seen figures over the years though, including (what matters to me) comparisons of total car pre & post conversion.

 

2. I've read parts of your analysis, but at the end of the day it's what happens in real life that matters. Now done 65K miles with my Honda, including over 50 trackdays. It's never missed a beat, or failed to start/run. I have experienced a failed gearbox, & in the early days problems with cv joints.

 

3. Conversion Cost including fitment of supercharger (after 2 years N/A) is around £11K. Sorry it's not possible to be precise, as other work was done at the same time e.g plumbed in extinguisher/electric cut off/upgraded roll hoop/aircon removal. The original 700 mile engine & gearbox cost £3K in 2005, Hondata ECU was around £600, & Supercharger kit was £3k if I recall correctly. To that is added labour/rewiring/driveshafts/engine mounts.

 

4. I'm not a great believer in rolling road figures as they can subject to all sorts of factors, & I have never before published them publically for that reason. However, when my car was mapped in 2008 (& not to give max output, but reliability) the readings were calculated to be 288bhp & 193 lbft. As I said I was/am not looking for pub talk figures, I do a lot of miles per year plus a fair few trackdays, & longetivity/reliability are of crucial importance to me.My car's performance more than satisfies my needs, & my driving ability, & I am very happy with it!,

 

As ever, I do genuinely wish you the best in your mission, Simon, but due to financial constraints/proven reliability, I chose to go down a particular route & have no regrets for doing so.

[HRT]

Very elequently put Rob

[KingK_series]

Simon

 

1. Nope not weighed it. I've seen figures over the years though, including (what matters to me) comparisons of total car pre & post conversion.

 

2. I've read parts of your analysis, but at the end of the day it's what happens in real life that matters. Now done 65K miles with my Honda, including over 50 trackdays. It's never missed a beat, or failed to start/run. I have experienced a failed gearbox, & in the early days problems with cv joints.

 

3. Conversion Cost including fitment of supercharger (after 2 years N/A) is around £11K. Sorry it's not possible to be precise, as other work was done at the same time e.g plumbed in extinguisher/electric cut off/upgraded roll hoop/aircon removal. The original 700 mile engine & gearbox cost £3K in 2005, Hondata ECU was around £600, & Supercharger kit was £3k if I recall correctly. To that is added labour/rewiring/driveshafts/engine mounts.

 

4. I'm not a great believer in rolling road figures as they can subject to all sorts of factors, & I have never before published them publically for that reason. However, when my car was mapped in 2008 (& not to give max output, but reliability) the readings were calculated to be 288bhp & 193 lbft. As I said I was/am not looking for pub talk figures, I do a lot of miles per year plus a fair few trackdays, & longetivity/reliability are of crucial importance to me.My car's performance more than satisfies my needs, & my driving ability, & I am very happy with it!,

 

As ever, I do genuinely wish you the best in your mission, Simon, but due to financial constraints/proven reliability, I chose to go down a particular route & have no regrets for doing so.

 

 

Excellent, a proper debate.

 

 

so to no

 

1/ well your bare K20A2 engine weighs 126.5kg, that compares to a stock equivalent bare K at 84.5 kg - the honda engine alone weighs 42kg more, add in gearbox, ancillaries extra cv joint etc and the difference grows to nearly 50kg, compared to one of my drysumped 2LKs the install difference is 60kg lighter than your na honda and 75kg less than a honda sc. Before/after car weights are meaningless because of what else happens at the same time - however on SE Tut's honda s1 is 765kg, that compares to my S1 at less than 700kg unmodified bar engine. Hondas add huge amounts of weight and run totally contrary to the spirit of Lotus and Colin Chapman.

 

 

2/ so much of what goes wrong with the K other than the cooling issue [amply descibed on the other thread here] is down to misguided, incompetant ruinous engine building by those who puport to be "professional" - amply illustrated in my thread on SE. But it doesn't need to be so. The sort of use you have from your honda are a minimum to be expected from a K that hasn't been butchered as so many have.

 

3/ 11K is a lot of money for an oe engine without the benifit of modern technologies such as DLC and TiN coatings, not to mention steel liners instead of cheap cast iron, the likes of which all my engines use and can still produce better figures than an equivalent honda [na or forced induction] for less money.

 

 

4/ The forced induction K figures will be published on dynoplot shortly, but expect to be well beaten. Adrian Newey's car is a road going turbo K I built with Lanzanti's and comfortably beats any honda or Audi forced induction result. A hillclimber turbo is going together now which will beat that again - looking at well over 500bhp.

[Pesky]

As I said, like most folk I can't/couldn't afford to persevere with the K series to" ensure", as much as that is possible, that it would deliver what my Honda has, & fingers crossed, will continue to do.Nothing will ever convince me that I have not had fantastic performance/reliability/value for money from my conversion.

 

Bear in mind that I am mechanically inept, therefore apart from changing brake pads, all work on my car is carried out by folk who know what they're doing. In addition to pure engine costs for the K, I would also have needed a new ECU, & throttle bodies, & I'm sure that a complete installation would be somewhat in excess of £11K, & would also have been far longer timewise in its gestation/installation.

 

Anyway, that's enough from me on this subject, except to once again wish you all the best with your endeavours.

[KingK_series]

As I said, like most folk I can't/couldn't afford to persevere with the K series to" ensure", as much as that is possible, that it would deliver what my Honda has, & fingers crossed, will continue to do.Nothing will ever convince me that I have not had fantastic performance/reliability/value for money from my conversion.

 

Bear in mind that I am mechanically inept, therefore apart from changing brake pads, all work on my car is carried out by folk who know what they're doing. In addition to pure engine costs for the K, I would also have needed a new ECU, & throttle bodies, & I'm sure that a complete installation would be somewhat in excess of £11K, & would also have been far longer timewise in its gestation/installation.

 

Anyway, that's enough from me on this subject, except to once again wish you all the best with your endeavours.

 

 

So how about a totally reliable, 1.8L K, wet sumped for simplicity, on a plenum to keep boot, guaranteed against so called "HGF"

78kg weight [28.5 kg less than just the honda engine wt] 240bhp, 165lbft, traffic friendly, occasional track day honda na killer, for less money than a honda turn key?

 

 

and, staying true to the spirit and ethos of Colin Chapman and his marque -....

[Pesky]

Sorry Simon, personally I'm not in the market, but even if I were, I've another complete K20A engine/gearbox in storage which I would prefer to use rather than your suggestion.

 

As well as being a mechanical imbecile, I don't have a particularly strong affiliation to all things Lotus. Nor am I inclined to agree that my Honda conversion weighs significantly more than pre conversion - at the end of the day, it goes more than well enough for my usage!

[KingK_series]

Sorry Simon, personally I'm not in the market, but even if I were, I've another complete K20A engine/gearbox in storage which I would prefer to use rather than your suggestion.

 

As well as being a mechanical imbecile, I don't have a particularly strong affiliation to all things Lotus. Nor am I inclined to agree that my Honda conversion weighs significantly more than pre conversion - at the end of the day, it goes more than well enough for my usage!

 

 

not trying to sell you one Pesky, though I would like to get you into one of mine to show you how smooth and torquey they are - quicker than a honda by a margin

 

 

but aside from that car weight is irrelevant, anyone can strip weight out of a car, if you fit a honda you are adding 50+kg [42+kg engine wt alone] over a stock K - want me to post up pics to prove it?

 

 

 

Finally I have to ask - if you don't have an affiliation to Lotus and all that the marque stands for, why do you have one? why not just get an Audi R8 or a Honda S2000?

[Pesky]

 

 

Finally I have to ask - if you don't have an affiliation to Lotus and all that the marque stands for, why do you have one? why not just get an Audi R8 or a Honda S2000?

 

I do have an affiliation to Lotus in general (ever since watching Jim Clark driving a Cortina at Oulton), it's just not an "exclusive" affiliation. I particularly love the Exige - always have, & always will, that's why I bought it new in 2001 & still have it today. There are many makes/models of other cars which I also like, but there's nothing under £100K (& not much over that)which I would swap my Exige for. Can only be described as "Exigeness", & those that have it feel exactly the same as me, & as a consequence many have become very good friends!

[KingK_series]

I do have an affiliation to Lotus in general (ever since watching Jim Clark driving a Cortina at Oulton), it's just not an "exclusive" affiliation. I particularly love the Exige - always have, & always will, that's why I bought it new in 2001 & still have it today. There are many makes/models of other cars which I also like, but there's nothing under £100K (& not much over that)which I would swap my Exige for. Can only be described as "Exigeness", & those that have it feel exactly the same as me, & as a consequence many have become very good friends!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then you must understand that the essential Lotus precept is lightweight, it is the thing that Colin Chapman ruthlessly persued in every car that bore his name, yielding advantages not just in straightline speed but braking and above all cornering. Therefore putting in a honda or Audi is not only not original, but denies the fundamental ethos of Lotus and Chapman.

 

 

Do you want me to post pics to prove absolutely that a honda K20A2 is 42kg heavier than a stock K, engine wts alone????

[Pesky]

You can keep prodding all you want Simon - but I'm 100% very happy with the choice I made some years ago, & the last thing I feel is guilt! My car is not heavy by any stretch of the imagination - it handles brilliantly, goes very well in a straightline,& around corners, it stops on a sixpence, & has proved to be uber reliable for over 60K miles with a lot of tracktime. Unfortunately, the Lotus marque had, in practice, historically failed to achieve all those attributes, despite Chapman's undoubted brilliance in setting out the fundamentals.

 

Post the photos you mention if you wish, no problem for me - but I'm sure I'll already have seen them on other forums.

[KingK_series]

You can keep prodding all you want Simon - but I'm 100% very happy with the choice I made some years ago, & the last thing I feel is guilt! My car is not heavy by any stretch of the imagination - it handles brilliantly, goes very well in a straightline,& around corners, it stops on a sixpence, & has proved to be uber reliable for over 60K miles with a lot of tracktime. Unfortunately, the Lotus marque had, in practice, historically failed to achieve all those attributes, despite Chapman's undoubted brilliance in setting out the fundamentals.

 

Post the photos you mention if you wish, no problem for me - but I'm sure I'll already have seen them on other forums.

 

 

Not trying to induce guilt Pesky just a sense of the truth

 

 

......... the trouble is truth is so hard to come by on these forums

 

no I have not posted pics of honda k20a2 on accurate scales vs K, NOT YET, but scuffham has regularly posted the difference is just 15kg which is a total lie, just like the dva claims on Exiges about my relationship with Vibration Free. - the lengths that some will go to silence the truth.