Elise S3 Brakes

[Trebor_UK]

The brakes on my Elise 240 FE never felt brilliant but at 2.5 years old in the cold and wet did nothing when pressed, a few pumps later and some braking happened. I took it in and the pads (oem from new) were glazed. I replaced them with Pagid RS42 and updated fluid. Difference was night and day. 
Now, a year and maybe 3500 miles on and the pedal feel is a little wooden again (like can brake light or hard but nothing in between) and they are squealing really bad at town driving  speeds and light braking (no squeal if I hit them hard).
Today I stripped the fronts down, both inside pads had the central vent clogged, so cleaned those out, the surface of the pads were given a light sanding and the discs cleaned. Reassembled and a few miles of driving to bed them in, no squeal, then I tried some harder braking and the pedal feel is much better again, seem to be able to control the braking force much better (like when first fitted the RS42s).

I don’t daily the car or do lots of short trips etc; the brakes get a decent workout quite regularly.

Anybody else experienced similar? Maybe just have to get used to doing this each year? Or worth considering a big brake kit??

[mattb130]

I suspect that the road driving even if it’s spirited is still below the threshold for the pads to stay optimal and what you’ve proven is that by deglazing them refitting and bedding them in again has fixed it. A big brake kit is going to increase the thermal capacity of the discs and give a longer pad so more even wear but ultimately if you have a track biased pad this likely to be repeated just with more expensive pads. 
 

The pagid pads don’t just rely on abrasive friction they have an element of adhesive friction which will come into play when the pads are at their operating temperature. 

[Trebor_UK]

Makes sense.

The brakes were fine for normal commute type driving, just the squealing was getting ridiculous. Its only once things got spirited that I felt the brakes lacking.

I'm just going to monitor the situation - if I have to deglaze the pads once/twice a year it's no big deal really.  And a lot cheaper than a big brake kit, which may just suffer the same anyway.

Once the pads are worn and need replacing (likely be a while) l'l have a look around and perhaps try something else.

[winthattt]

I assume you have fitted brake buffers in the front pads (from Elise parts), though they don’t stop squeal, and you put ceramic grease on the pad back/pistons and where the pads touch the calliper (which does stop squeal).  Rs42 are great track pads but I would use something different for road use. They are rather dead until you get some heat into them and they have been bedded in (a few high speed deceleration and then allow them and the discs to cool).  I’ve always found Elise brakes to be exceptionally good and no need for a big brake kit (I fitted one to my s2 Exige, waste of money, looked good though). 
 

You find brakes good cold but not hot, which is odd. As they glazed, is there any chance the brakes a dragging (sticking) the pistons should push in easily, I push them in with a bit of wood (as it hurts my fingers) but not much force is needed.

Edited Wednesday at 18:25 by winthattt

[Trebor_UK]

I did quite a bit of research and went RS42 because a lot of folk suggested they still had bite when cold and didn’t need to get up to temp before working. Which is what I found. They utterly transformed the car, but had gone off in the last few months.

i did also wonder if they were dragging but found no evidence, pistons moved ok, not finding them getting overly hot after driving with little braking.

Could it be the discs?  Some contamination/deposits ?
I’ll see how they go over the next few months and have a rethink in the spring 

Edited Wednesday at 19:12 by Trebor_UK

[winthattt]

I doubt it’s your discs. Did you bed the brakes in to get a good transfer layer on the pads? They are race pads and need some care.  The process is easy but you can’t reach the suggested speeds (legally) and as an Elise is so light I add some cycles, often accompanied by smoke. Doing the cycles with judgement and applying brake and accel at the same time is safer/easier.

https://www.pagidracing.com/information/bedding-in-service

I’ve never found them worse when hot. Used them for years on track. They are now owned by Europarts and some say the quality has changed but I have not experienced any issues. 

Additional thought…. Bedding brakes in “out gasses” the pad (and forms the transfer layer), releases gas from the pad. If you don’t do that in a controlled way the gas pushes the pad off the disc when it gets hot, only happens a few times but it is scary. When I first got my current gt86 it had pads which stated “not for track use”, I tried a few wet laps of Donington and they were right, second hard brake and there was nothing there until the pad cooled.

 

Edited Thursday at 09:48 by winthattt

[Trebor_UK]

Yes did bedding in (on a private road 😉) They have been great for 12 months plus.

Not specifically that they were going off when hot. Just gone off generally and the pedal feels wooden, and bad squealing.

The cleaning/deglazing I’ve done has improved things greatly and the pedal feel is much improved and no squeal.

This has happened with stock pads and the rs42 now so wondering what could be contributing factors.

 

[winthattt]

No idea then, sorry. You could just try some cheap discs, you don’t need bells or grooved for road use, though they look pretty. 

[mattb130]

Potentially the wheel cleaner could be factor. As that could be striping the transferred layer from the disc just like it’s lifting the dust from the wheel. It’s just a thought. 

[Trebor_UK]

18 minutes ago, mattb130 said:

Potentially the wheel cleaner could be factor. As that could be striping the transferred layer from the disc just like it’s lifting the dust from the wheel. It’s just a thought. 

I have wondered whether it could be something with my snow foam or car shampoo combination, going to try and make sure I rinse the wheels/brakes off quite quickly when cleaning going forwards and not let products dwell on the discs at least.

I have had many occurrences of washing the car then first few brake applications do very little until, presumably, the discs/pad surfaces dry out or scrub off whatever is left on the surface.

 

[mattb130]

30 minutes ago, Trebor_UK said:

I have wondered whether it could be something with my snow foam or car shampoo combination, going to try and make sure I rinse the wheels/brakes off quite quickly when cleaning going forwards and not let products dwell on the discs at least.

I have had many occurrences of washing the car then first few brake applications do very little until, presumably, the discs/pad surfaces dry out or scrub off whatever is left on the surface.

 

I was thinking of the reactive wheel cleaners  really. I have similar after washing but it’s limited the first couple of brake applications. 

[Matt5964]

The transfer layer is simply just getting worn off buy street driving at lower than there optimal operating range.

whilst as reviews say they bite from cold that will be via abrasive friction , driving on the road will not get them into the adhesive friction temp range much if at all as it’s continuous had stops like on track that keeps the core temp up.

the reality is your using the wrong pad for your usage and would be better off with a Street bias pad as mentioned above.

 

we run CL5+ with no issues been through two sets now on our third science 2019 with plenty mixed driving and track been faultless (8-10 TDs and 3000+road miles a year)

you have to take care of them when washing car and if driving in rain a few hard stops to get temp in them before putting away so there dry is all that’s needed, no bedding in needed as there sintered so work out of the box every time, also light on discs from our experience 

[Trebor_UK]

3 hours ago, Matt5964 said:

the reality is your using the wrong pad for your usage and would be better off with a Street bias pad as mentioned above.

You may be right, but the same happened with the OEM lotus pads. 

So it was recommended to get more aggressive pads. I’ve used ‘track’ pads in plenty of cars before for fast road use and not had issues, but the Elise is lightweight

[Matt5964]

10 minutes ago, Trebor_UK said:

You may be right, but the same happened with the OEM lotus pads. 

So it was recommended to get more aggressive pads. I’ve used ‘track’ pads in plenty of cars before for fast road use and not had issues, but the Elise is lightweight

Maybe adapting your braking style may be beneficial 

less duration with sharper force would suit the pad style and car type

[Trebor_UK]

1 hour ago, Matt5964 said:

Maybe adapting your braking style may be beneficial 

less duration with sharper force would suit the pad style and car type

Been trying to do that to deal with the squeal, as sharper braking doesn’t cause anywhere near as much squeal. It’s easy on fast country roads but more tricky in built up areas.

Squeal seems to have been sorted for now by the pad deglaze, but will see how long it stays that way and will make a conscious effort to be sharper for less duration wherever possible.