Arb - Technical Question

[AL G]

Evening all,

 

I'm having serious front end handling problems, getting worse too. Front end feels like it's bouncing round like a box of frogs, and feels light and if i corner at over 20mph it feels like I have power steering (i can't feel the front wheels gripping the road any longer)

 

I'm running newish 9k mile Koni's, although i've recently discovered they are ten years old, and were in storage from 97 till 04!!! Car has never had a GEO, at least in last 5 years. TRE's and ball joints have no play, neither has steering rack (refurbed in 04/05). Original wishbone bushes I think (55k miles). Badly corroded and Bent rear toe arm.

 

Now although I've listed a fair few obvious handling gremlins, i have done what i can (and can afford to do) :

- bought S2 Suspension (110/120 from steve butts) awaiting delivery.

- bought the motorsport toe link kit from tads.co.uk - awaiting delivery.

- measured my own camber at -1 deg f, -3 deg r (1 deg high on the rear, have bought 3mm shim to add each side rear)

- Removed and sanded back the anti rollbar nylon bushes (seemed tight anyway)

 

- wishbones will be re_furbed and re_bushed after this summer when I have time (plus all 8 ball joints and both TRE's)

 

After I've fitted the S2 dampers (myself), and the toe kit (myself) and had a Geo done, I'm starting to wonder about the ARB and it's drop links. It's the main part of the Elise steering that i dont' really understand and can't visualise what it does ! Can anyone advise what it does?

 

Has anyone had the above problems, and other than what I've made steps to rectify, could it be anything to do with the ARB or drop links? I'm not sure of the symptoms of loose / play in ARB bushes, or droplinks (other than knocking, which I have none of)

 

 

 

Thanks as usual,

a very confused and frustrated Al.

 

[chorton_1]

Other than feeling for play and/or hearing knocking I'm not too sure on how you'd diagnose play in the antiroll bar. MarkA would be the man to tell you.

 

Here is a Wikipedia entry for antiroll bars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiroll_bar

 

The device is basically a bar connected to both front wheels. As the body rolls the bar twists and resists the roll. A stiffer front bar (bigger diameter or operating on shorter arms) means less body roll and a bigger tendency to understeer and is hence used as a chassis tuning device. The disadvantage is it prevents both front wheels from working independently, causing some less desirable characteristics over bumps.

[GCCK]

Hi Al

 

I had a worn o/s drop link replaced and it made a big difference to precision.

 

They (Horizon) didn't replace the n/s because it looked OK for now, but I'm planning a major suspension refresh involving balljoints, bushes, toelinks, tre's & rack, just so that I know that everything is fresh and presumably perfect.

 

Spoke to a chap (Matt) on a recent track day who had gone through the exercise and his words were "it seems hard to justify spending £1000 on stuff you can't see but you really notice the difference, with no play in the system." Said it inspired much more confidence too. Scott had a ride in my car then Matt's too and agreed about the feeling, even from the passenger seat.

 

What I would say however, is if you also plan to spend a similar amount of time and/or money on these bits, it makes the difference between S2 and Ohlins (or Nitron) relatively speaking less significant. In other words, get the best dampers you can to do justice to the other fresh bits.

 

You're lucky that you & your bruv have the expertise & tools to swap out these bits - it's a fiddly job, labour intensive & hence expensive. Put the labour cost saving towards the better dampers!

[AL G]

yikes - that's complex stuff on the wikkipedia, cheers it makes a lot more sense )

 

Graeme - yes, i'm very lucky in terms of Labour. We are both learning as we go (part of the reason I bought the car, as well as driving it). Even though he hasn't worked on cars professionally for years, the basic mechanical parts of the elise he reckons are relatively simple compared to modern cars electronic gizmo's. The only bit he hates is the bloody access to everything!

 

I'm still going to use a specialist for the Geo and servicing, even though i can now measure Camber myself quite accurately ( Paul Tyrell showed me how )

 

I'd love to go for better suspension now, I always did see the S2 stuff as false economy in the long term but the simple fact is that £580 was such a good price (that is delivered, 110/120 with some 3mm shims for the rear camber) I couldn't turn it down. With my first "proper" track day looming, I need to get a move on and stop talking about changes and actually do them !!!

 

Interesting that you had a new drop link, and it was more precise immediately - did they know from looking at the drop link, or was it play ? Very difficult to tell by just play I guess. I'm trying, but the loads you can put on a joint by handmust be miniscule compared to the real loads on the car when actually cornering on track at speed..

 

And yeah - the bushes / tre / drop link / balljoint - complete upgrade is very expensive for something you can't see, but I'm also doing one at the end of this summer !!! Just need to find a garage I can borrow to keep warm and dry ! I think I've been watching too much american hotrod, cos i'm spraying my wishbones silver, not black like Martin )

[Ladders]

Alasdair, are you sure it's not just that you need the whole Geo doing?

 

When I first fitted Bilsteins the car felt crap and I was quite worried. After a Geo everyting was brilliant!

[AL G]

I'm hoping so mate )

 

Bilsteins should be with me after the bank hol w/e, and hopefully so will the toe link kit. Geo will be probably the most needed one ever after I've botched together that lot !

 

My main concern was that the handling problem has only come to light relatively recently, but I'm hoping it is just the dampers. Maybe I've hit a pot hole and have knocked the front Toe in on one side (I'll be going for 15mins total toe OUT at the front)

 

Did you get your toe links sorted? I'm also a bit confused with the "above vs below the bearing" shim instructions I have (extensive as they are !!! )

[Ladders]

I've fitted the 4 shims underneath. I can't see how they would make any difference above as I presume the difference is made by moving the pivit up or down underneath the hub, if you see what I mean!?

[gerags]

Alasdair, are you sure it's not just that you need the whole Geo doing?

 

When I first fitted Bilsteins the car felt crap and I was quite worried. After a Geo everyting was brilliant!

 

 

Spot on.

 

When I replaced mine (125/135) the instructions stated that a 3mm shim should be removed from the front and 1mm from the rear.

 

But I took it to Horizon to have the Geo set correctly.

No point in replacing the suspension and having an amateur like myself try and set up the cambers.