Thought About Toe Link Failure Observed Yesterday

[olliecast]

Afternoon all,

was watching the chap in the garage set my rear toe yesterday and the locking nuts were well and truly stuck on my toe links

 

This was on the second link and he was using just one spanner to try and free it before he attacked it with the oxy heat gun. Got it eventually but there was some serious load required to free it.

 

I was thinking about the load being placed on the mount when he was doing this, and it`ll be trying the snap the link at the usual failure points. I mentioned this and he promptly got another spanner on it.

 

Should i now be worried about the integrity of my links?

car is 160vvc s1 with advan neovas. steel hub on near side and aluminium on off side to top it off.

 

Cheers,

ollie

[Numbnutz]

I think if you drive it hard and you are on original toe links, with a bit more bhp than std, and you worry about them, then you should invest in some new ones.

 

If you think the mount has been compromised by heat and brute force -who knows. If you just potter about and cruise, I would expect they will be ok, if they look ok - but then I suspect you don't potter - so consider them at least, especially if you do TD's, in my opinion.

[Martin R]

I think toe links especially standard ones should be considered a consumable and changed on a regular basis.

[fentuz]

I think toe links especially standard ones should be considered a consumable and changed on a regular basis.

 

I can only agree (had a failure on track). To be fair, most of joints tend to wear, event the rose joint. They need to be serviced (cleaned up and lubricated often) and if there is just a little play, replacement... £50 is better than a crash...

[russelld]

What is it that fails ?

 

I presume it is the TRE's and only after they are showing signs of wear / play. Or am I missing something ?

 

The Eliseparts replacement kit includes new rods, are the OEM rods considered a weak point ?

 

Just curious as I have never had a problem ( famous last words ). I obviously I don't corner hard enough!!

[fentuz]

one of the joint locked and broke.

 

After inspection, it turns out that the shop in sheffield who did the geo, set one joint one way and the other one the other way preventing the required movement in the suspension. => failure was down to poor fitting...

but ever since, i have kept checking these joints are sound

[stockhome]

I was told to check that the rods rotate fairly easily. If they do not they the ball joint could be shot and lock. Which causes the failure in the bar or the joint.

[Martin R]

Russ nothing wrong with the rods. There are 4 toelinks on the rear of an Elise. They are basically a ball joint. They are supposed to articulate as the dampers extend and compress.

 

There appears to be 2 main problems. They seize or come loose both can lead to the failure which is normally the thread shearing. You dont want this to happens as the rear wheel can then point anyway it likes which leads to some interesting handling.

 

I check mine before and after every trackday. I reverse the car onto ramps and make sure they are not loose. There is also a flat on them so you can check they rotate freely although they are normally too stiff to rotate by hand.

 

Changing them depends on usage obviously. If you do a lot of trackdays, every couple of years should do. Only a few possibly every 4 years?

 

As Bill says they need installing with the joints at 90 degrees to each other to allow free movement both ways on both joints. The inner N/S also dries out due to being close to the exhaust. All this is IMO of course

[Numbnutz]

I thought the standard toelink bolts failed - due to being loose and being under flex - hence if you check them and they can rotate under reasonable load, and were not loose or seized, or rattled on the bolts - then they could be considered ok.

 

But fatigued bolts are difficult to judge. Heat, vibration and flex can all take their toll. Dried out or worn rose joints can cause problems too. So some simple checks give an idea as to if the bolts or links need attention, but I thought most uprated toelinks had uprated fasteners, as this is the weak area?

 

Other than mounting bolts, what other aspect of toelinks fails?

[Martin R]

The point i was trying to make is they need attention occasionally. Toe links that are 10. 12 or 15 years old and had no maintenance are prone to fail. People seem suprised by this, im not. They take a great deal of stress on cornering ( more with sticky tyres ). The main problem is if one does fail its highly dangerous.

 

I had one come loose at Oulton once and it has made me very careful though. When i say come loose the nut into the other side of the subframe had come loose allowing it to move in the hole.

[russelld]

Thanks all.

 

I do check mine quite regularly, but have never found a problem. I can rotate them about 60 -70 degrees but there has never been any play. I'll keep on checking !

[Numbnutz]

Hi Martin, yes I agree. They do need occaisional checks - and before and after each TD is a wise move, considering they don't take long to check.

 

Most people overlook the toelinks - myself included. I didn't check mine for a few years after buying my S2. But once you look at them and realise that those thin ball joint bolts are the only thing keeping your rear wheels pointing the right way, and that the OEM toelinks are only secured on one side (i.e the bolt is not held true on both sides of the pivot point, or upgraded to something stronger) - then you start to think about upgrading them if you push it in corners, do TD's or have more power and push on the exits.

 

I'll get some pics to descibe the above, and upgrade options.

 

Standard Toe link: See part 34 and 35.

(Pic from http://www.deroure.c...31_03medium.gif)

 

Elise-shop - (putting both bolts into double shear)

 

SSC - bit more robust - but I don't think the extra link won't fit mine because of exhaust. Discussions here.

 

Spitfire/Eliseshop (Hub nut single shear)

 

Failed Toe link vs upgraded.

 

Can't you tell I'm bored. Putting off taking front clam off and fitting new rad and charge cooler .. burrr it s cold in the garage.

[Martin R]

Dave, thanks for the very informative post. It explains it well.

[Numbnutz]

But the burning question is, which are the best toe links to upgrade to?

 

The SSC Rose joints/rod ends are chrome moly Heim steel, and Teflon/Kevlar self-lubricating race, so don't need to be kept greased, where as some of the other upgrades are not are as hardy, and need greasing and have still been know to fail (in that the rod ends develop play) after 10k miles - which is not good IMO. Also, the upgraded bolts need to be upto the job too, otherwise its not an upgrade.

 

I haven't seen any of these upgrades in the flesh, but I personally favour the design of the elise shop on the hub, and the rod ends and ali tie of the SSC. My Honda manifold doesn't allow me to fit the SSC version - but I bet most people still rate the others listed above and more, if they haven't had a problem.

 

Has anyone had upgrades and experienced problems with them?

[olliecast]

Thought I'd give mine a check today and noticed that the inner lock nut on the driver side was loose!

The rod ends were no where near 90 degrees to each other either. Only took quarter of a turn to get them aligned again so guessing it won't have effected the rear toe much?

Frustratingly, noticed also that the outer joints dust boot on the same side was heat damaged and split. Guess its from the heat that was used to loosen the lock nuts to adjust toe. Filled it with grease but should I now expect exponential wear?

 

On a plus side all the bolts are tight and the joints move fairly smoothly just about with hand strength.

 

Any feedback on the above welcomed